Interesting
Nov. 25th, 2003 01:11 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
mbarrick
I'll have to read this in more detail later since I'm at work now, but I came across a site that has an interesting argument that "Vinland" could have been the Cowichan Valley. Yup, Vikings in Duncan.Background
Navigating the Northwest Passage
Blonde Eskimoes
Viking Petroglyphs, Sails and Ships
Ships for Rooves and Cooper Plated Monsters
Weaving, Wool, and the Cowichan Sweater
Cairns, Bears, Petroglyphs, Sagas and Wine.
As I said, I haven't read it in detail, but it appears well researched, with the research well documented, and incorporates several recent Viking discoveries in the far north that I was heretofore unaware of. Fascinating stuff.
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no subject
Date: 2003-11-25 02:58 pm (UTC)(That's a LOT of data!)
Didn't we always know there was way more in the hills of Duncan than we could imagine?
900 Hours
Date: 2003-11-25 03:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-25 03:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-25 03:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-25 04:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-11-25 04:25 pm (UTC)The book talks about the peculiar fact that the Salish, unlike any other group of native North Americans, had facial hair. Back "home" that was commented on frequently, usually in the context of land-claims, as a point of dismissal, along the lines of "they're not real pure-blooded indians anyway or they wouldn't have beards." Throws that for an interesting loop. I think I'll be having some fun with this whole concept at Christmas dinner.
I have a second-cousin whose mother is Salish who is as blonde and blue eyed as they come. My cousin was blonde and blue-eyed, but since they are both recessive traits the mother must obviously have had the genes.
My Two Kroners...
Date: 2003-11-26 09:31 pm (UTC)Also, since there is some evidence (shipwrecks) of Oriental vistors to the Oregon and northern California coasts that date from the around Middle Ages or early Rennaisence, one could make the assumption that there is a far greater chance of Chinese/Japanese racial influence than some sort of Viking influence.
Besides, the Vikings attitude of Indians from reading the Groenlandsaga is that they conisdered the Skaelings (Norse for Indians) as comparible to dogs and other animals. I can't see Vinlanders interbreeding with first nations people.
Re: My Two Kroners...
Date: 2003-11-27 07:11 am (UTC)There are confirmed and probable Viking sites throughout the Queen Elizabeth Islands, appearing as far west as Victoria Island.
As for the sagas, these were told and retold by the people who *didn't* stay and went home. If you were telling a story of adventure to your son, would you say "and we visited some nice people" or play it up a bit? And on the retelling what's going to get exaggerated? One need only look at modern Greenlander to settle the interbreeding question.
Suomien - not Norse?
Date: 2003-11-27 10:18 am (UTC)Remember the rune tablet found in Minnesota (oddly enough a location with a large percentage of Norwegians... hmm) that turned out to be a big hoax?
And now all of the interbreeding theories. I just can't see how the genes of a handful of Norse settlers 1000 years that may have gotten a little randy with the natives would last so long? One would think that all of the unnoticed but rampant interbreeding amongst differenet tribes would have had a more profound effect over 1000 years than a few Norse? But the again, genetics has never been a strong topic with me.
If there IS indeed Nordic genes, would it not be more plausible that it could have come from points westwards, as in Siberia?
The Finns (who are racially different than Scandinavians / Norse; nevertheless look the same to the untrained eye) came from the Urals region. What if some of them travelled eastwards instead and made a hop skip jump across the Bering Strait? That would make much more sense - but a bunch of normadic Finns from Siberia doesn't makie for good reading while some mysterious Norse colony does.
Besides, just to throw fuel on the fire - Finnish and the Uralic languages are a lot closer to Inuit in structure and sound than Norse. Perhaps there's some linguistic influence as well? Inuit when spoken by white people sounds a lot like Finnish after all.
Re: Suomien - not Norse?
Date: 2003-11-27 04:45 pm (UTC)Most of the bias against Medaeival and ancient mariners actually covering significant territory is European (especially English) conceit. I've heard there is new evidence that the Chinese may have circumnavigated the globe about 100 years before Magellan. It's established that the ancient Egyptians routinely circumnavigated Africa.
There is, of course, no doubt of the Viking presence on the East coast of North America. The controversy comes in over the precise location of Vinland since the landmarks noted in the saga don't match up especially well with the terrain of the east coast, particularly the mention of a river flowing from east to west. The paper explains, in detail and with references (this isn't some half-baked Reptard-style wanking), how the Queen Charlottes and Vancouver Island match up better to Markland and Vinalnd respectively. Also notable are the flat rocks of Helluland and the Viking themed pretroglyphs carved into flat rocks along the BC/Alaska coast.
Seriosly, this guy has done his homework. Don't dismiss the theory until you have read it.
Vinalnd is easy to figure out
Date: 2003-11-28 01:05 am (UTC)I think it is pretty dang simple to figure out by deduction where Vinland was from reading the Grænlendinga and Eirik Sagas – namely the site at l’Anse au Meadow in Newfoundland.
First of all, there are the actual remains of the Viking settlement which we all know about and there is physical evidence of.
According to the Grænlendinga Saga, there were three regions the Vikings explored: Helluland, Markeland, and Vinland. According to the same saga, there was only one settlement: Vinland.
Put one and one together and it’s clear.
The problem is with the grapes – or lack thereof in Newfoundland, which seems to always damn l’Anse au Meadows as being Vinland.
Fine, but then what to make of l’Anse au Meadow?
Which settlement would it have been then if there was only one Norse settlement in North America? Historians are more than quick to dismiss l'Anse au Meadow as being Vinland - but never ever get around to then explaining the site's own existance and how it fits into the saga.
As well, maybe the grapes were just another real estate scam like Grønland’s name bears witness? It is very plausible that the discoverers of Vinland were embellishing the site – after all, they knowingly did so previous to make Greenland more appealing.
What is also interesting is that two separate voyages were made to Vinland – apparently they Norse knew how to locate Vinland with ease. Leif even was able to find Helluland right off the bat, a location discovered accidently at sea by the lost Bjarni.
The sailing times quoted in the Grænlendinga are way too short to allow for a voyage farther south – like say New England or up through the Northwest Passage.
Bjarni’s Voyage: lost site of land 3 days out from Iceland; after “many” days drifting, they hoisted sail and sighted land after 1 day. 2 days later they sighted land again. 3 more days they sighted land again. 4 days later they found their way back to Greenland. Bjarni settles at this landfall in Greenland and the fjord bears his name: Herjolfsnaes
Leif’s voyage: his first landfall was Bjarni’s final before returning to Greenland. So we can deduct that Helluland was the location 4 days away from the southern tip of Greenland (Bjarni's settlement).
There is no mention in this particular saga of the number of days in transit between Helluland and Markelund but Vinland was only 2 days away from the landfall in Markelund according to the Grænlendinga.
But if we compare the voyage as described in the Eirik Saga, it states that the distance between Lelluland and Markelund was 2 days away. These rather short voyages don’t allow for the more southern location for grapes on the east coast of the fact that the days were more even with the nights (something I don’t think the Norse would have really noticed that accurately).
Basically, Vinalnd was 8 days sailing from the southern tip of Greenland. If you look at it taking 4 days to cross the Davis Strait, then that same distance sailed yet again put you in the vicinity of L’Anse au Meadows.
(How can you tell I've read a lot of Icelandic literature - English translations of course...)
Re: Vinalnd is easy to figure out
Date: 2003-11-28 07:25 am (UTC)And I'm not easily impressed, nor am I wholly uneducated in this area. In university I took a few courses on Viking art and history.
Also, don't dismiss "Greenland" as purely a marketing ploy. In the spring and summer is is stunningly green, almost lime green, from moss and grass and the water is green from algae:
http://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/voyage/subset/greenland/photoh.jpg
Re: Vinalnd is easy to figure out
Date: 2003-11-28 11:05 am (UTC)He seems to regard the basis for the name Greenland as being weaker than for the three North American sites - and thus tries to shift Greenland as to being North America, and Iceland to Greenland.
Re: Vinalnd is easy to figure out
Date: 2003-11-28 11:23 am (UTC)My impression of this, in terms of accuracy, is it goes in my "middle" pile.
"The Vinland Code" - by Sovietnimrod
Date: 2003-11-28 11:46 am (UTC)And inspired by him, I now present to you the draft idea for my new book The Vinland Code. In it, I shall prove that it was all a big cover-up by the British.
Consider: 1) The Gudrid incident with the woman with the biggest eyes ever seen.
Consider: 2) The native population on Newfoundland was wiped out.
Conclusion: Space Aliens in 1000 AD Newfoundland!
I just haven't been able to work the Merovingians into it yet, maybe for the sequel.
Movie Rights are availible for a tidy $4000.00
Re: Vinalnd is easy to figure out
Date: 2003-11-28 03:22 pm (UTC)That was a work I so much wanted to believe but is built up too much on threadbare substance and guesswork that it collapses from its own weight.
Re: Vinalnd is easy to figure out
Date: 2003-11-28 04:04 pm (UTC)What I find interesting about this article, isn't so much the conclusion being drawn about Vinland specifically, but the suggestion and evidence that it may not have just been the Chinese sailing along this coast. With several hundred years to do it, and a string of artifacts along the Northwest Passage, it is a very compelling thought.
Re: Suomien - not Norse?
Date: 2003-11-28 01:45 am (UTC)I just can't see how the Norse would over time have mistaken Greenland for North America, and Iceland for Greenland. Yes, Greenland was isolated for some hundreds of years, but Iceland has had constant contact with the oustide world since the time of the events in the Sagas.
Next he's going to say that Vinland was located in Atlantis.
Re: Suomien - not Norse?
Date: 2003-11-28 07:34 am (UTC)Re: Suomien - not Norse?
Date: 2003-11-28 07:36 am (UTC)Re: Suomien - not Norse?
Date: 2003-11-28 11:01 am (UTC)It's the section near the bottom of the page.
I do agree about the poor cartography of the region.
There is one island (Air Force Island, in the Foxe Basin west of Prince Charles Island) that wasn't discoverd until the late 1940s when a bomber flight went over it and notice it wasn't on any of their charts.